| Both sides previous revision Previous revision Next revision | Previous revision |
| edward_i_butler_morres_and_lodge_families [2021/03/17 11:31] – judith | edward_i_butler_morres_and_lodge_families [2023/11/10 14:48] (current) – judith |
|---|
| //Photo: Kilkenny Castle (one of the Butler residences)//.\\ | //Photo: Kilkenny Castle (one of the Butler residences)//.\\ |
| |
| Some past Murray-Priors saw the Butlers as an important focus when compiling family trees, especially Robert Hickson who was a member of the Butler Society and made special mention of Butler "cousins".((Hickson, //The Historic Family Tree of Thomas Lodge Murray-Prior//, Finale.)) His main claim to a connection with the Irish family was through the marriage of Ethel Nora M-P (1884-1959) to Royston Butler (1874-1961), though Royston Butler's connection to the aristocratic Irish family appears to be remote. Robert Hickson, like others, found another connection to the Irish aristocratic family - one that the description 'remote' is not nearly strong enough. He and others started with England’s [[wp>Edward_I_of_England|Edward I]] (reigned 1272-1307) through to his grand-daughter Eleanor (Alianore) de Bohun (c.1302-63). Note that Edward I had 17 or 18 (legitimate) children so his descendants are numerous! Alianore married James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond, 2nd Earl of Carrick and [[wp>County_Palatine_of_Tipperary_Act_1715|Lord Palatine]] of Tipperary, Ireland. By jumping from sons and daughters as required, you can get from Eleanor/Alianore to [[the_morres_family|Frances Butler]], elder daughter of the Hon. Colonel Piers Butler, who married Hervey Morres: their great-granddaughter [[francis_morres|Frances Morres]] married Andrew Murray-Prior. Not a close connection! \\ | Some past Murray-Priors saw the Butlers as an important focus when compiling family trees, especially Robert Hickson who was a member of the Butler Society and made special mention of Butler "cousins".((Hickson, //The Historic Family Tree of Thomas Lodge Murray-Prior//, Finale.)) His main claim to a connection with the Irish family was through the marriage of Ethel Nora M-P (1884-1959) to Royston Butler (1874-1961), though Royston Butler's connection to the aristocratic Irish family appears to be remote. Robert Hickson, like others, found another connection to the Irish aristocratic family - one that the description 'remote' is not nearly strong enough. He and others started with England’s [[wp>Edward_I_of_England|Edward I]] (reigned 1272-1307) through to his grand-daughter Eleanor (Alianore) de Bohun (c.1302-63). Note that Edward I had 17 or 18 (legitimate) children so his descendants are numerous! Alianore married James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond, 2nd Earl of Carrick and [[wp>County_Palatine_of_Tipperary_Act_1715|Lord Palatine]] of Tipperary, Ireland. By jumping from sons and daughters as required, you can get from Eleanor/Alianore to Frances Butler, elder daughter of the Hon. Colonel Piers Butler, who married Hervey Morres: their great-granddaughter [[francis_morres|Frances Morres]] married Andrew Murray-Prior. Not a close connection! \\ |
| |
| A possible Butler ‘air castle’ features an illegitimate Butler baby. It was easy to believe that parentage was not always what it seemed in the past when no-one could conclusively prove their parentage; when abstinence was the only effective contraception; and when children born of parents who were not married ((elsewhere I use the stigmatised word 'illegitimate' for convenience)) were common. Concerns about 'lost' children were part of the popular culture, tapped as a source of comic/dramatic inspiration by Gilbert & Sullivan, Oscar Wilde etc. Usually these stories coalesced around a powerful, and hitherto unacknowledged, father. One example is Sir John Conway, an equerry to (later Queen) Victoria’s father and dominating influence during Victoria's childhood. Victoria banished him from the court when she ascended the throne. One explanation for Conway's bullying of Victoria is that he believed (against all evidence) that his wife was Victoria's half-sister, an illegitimate child of her father. The eminent historian A.N. Wilson comments that it is unknown if Sir John’s wife shared – or even knew about – her husband’s belief in her royal parentage.((A.N. Wilson, //Victoria. A Life//, London: Atlantic Books, 2014, pp.34-35)) | A possible Butler ‘air castle’ features an illegitimate Butler baby. It was easy to believe that parentage was not always what it seemed in the past when no-one could conclusively prove their parentage; when abstinence was the only effective contraception; and when children born of parents who were not married ((elsewhere I use the stigmatised word 'illegitimate' for convenience)) were common. Concerns about 'lost' children were part of the popular culture, tapped as a source of comic/dramatic inspiration by Gilbert & Sullivan, Oscar Wilde etc. Usually these stories coalesced around a powerful, and hitherto unacknowledged, father. One example is Sir John Conway, an equerry to (later Queen) Victoria’s father and dominating influence during Victoria's childhood. Victoria banished him from the court when she ascended the throne. One explanation for Conway's bullying of Victoria is that he believed (against all evidence) that his wife was Victoria's half-sister, an illegitimate child of her father. The eminent historian A.N. Wilson comments that it is unknown if Sir John’s wife shared – or even knew about – her husband’s belief in her royal parentage.((A.N. Wilson, //Victoria. A Life//, London: Atlantic Books, 2014, pp.34-35)) |
| |
| The Murray-Prior/Butler 'lost child' story, related by Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P,((Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, ms written 1901-05 NLA Nq929.2M984; Thomas Bertram M-P, Some Australasian Families Descended from Royalty, ms, n.d., pp.26-34.)) | The Murray-Prior/Butler 'lost child' story, related by Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P,((Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, ms written 1901-05 NLA Nq929.2M984; Thomas Bertram M-P, Some Australasian Families Descended from Royalty, ms, n.d., pp.26-34.)) begins with the above Andrew M-P's son, [[Andrew Redmond Murray-Prior]] (1786-1860), having an affair with his distant cousin Lady Sarah Butler (c.1790-1838). This is possible: they were both in their early twenties and unmarried at the time. Robert M-P recorded(( Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, pp.35-38)) that Lady Sarah became pregnant, but was forbidden to marry Andrew because her parents disliked him (as likely, as a younger son, he was not much of a catch for a Butler lady). When Lady Sarah's baby was born in April 1811, her parents had the baby whisked away to be raised by foster parents. Despite efforts, neither parent was ever able to discover their baby’s given name or whereabouts. Lady Sarah was ‘distraught for some years’, though in October 1812 she married another relative, the Hon. Charles Harward Butler. It is feasible that this marriage was a strategic one to contain the scandal within the family. Such an action would be especially likely as the birth would make it obvious to a bridegroom that Lady Sarah was far from being a virgin. Aristocratic women tended to be free to have affairs with suitable men, with resulting illegitimate children, but there was considerable anxiety that they first produce a legitimate ‘heir and a spare’.((The phrase was first used by Consuelo Vanderbilt (1877–1964) who was forced into marriage with the Duke of Marlborough, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consuelo_Vanderbilt and Julie Ferry, //The Transatlantic Marriage Bureau//, Aurum Press, 2017.)) Certainly the Hon. Charles was amendable to a bargain and so eager for advancement that, to try to secure an inheritance, he later added relatives’ surnames to his, becoming the Hon. Charles Harward Butler-Clarke-Southwell-Wandesford((https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/butler-hon-charles-1780-1860)): yes, really! \\ |
| begins with the above Andrew M-P's son, [[Andrew Redmond Murray-Prior]] (1786-1860), having an affair with his distant cousin Lady Sarah Butler (c.1790-1838). This is possible: they were both in their early twenties and unmarried at the time. Robert M-P recorded(( Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, pp.35-38)) that Lady Sarah became pregnant, but was forbidden to marry Andrew because her parents disliked him (as likely, as a younger son, he was not much of a catch for a Butler lady). When Lady Sarah's baby was born in April 1811, her parents had the baby whisked away to be raised by foster parents. Despite efforts, neither parent was ever able to discover their baby’s given name or whereabouts. Lady Sarah was ‘distraught for some years’, though in October 1812 she married another relative, the Hon. Charles Harward Butler. It is feasible that this marriage was a strategic one to contain the scandal within the family. Such an action would be especially likely as the birth would make it obvious to a bridegroom that Lady Sarah was far from being a virgin. Aristocratic women tended to be free to have affairs with suitable men, with resulting illegitimate children, but there was considerable anxiety that they first produce a legitimate ‘heir and a spare’.((The phrase was first used by Consuelo Vanderbilt (1877–1964) who was forced into marriage with the Duke of Marlborough, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consuelo_Vanderbilt and Julie Ferry, //The Transatlantic Marriage Bureau//, Aurum Press, 2017.)) Certainly the Hon. Charles was amendable to a bargain and so eager for advancement that, to try to secure an inheritance, he later added relatives’ surnames to his, becoming the Hon. Charles Harward Butler-Clarke-Southwell-Wandesford((https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/butler-hon-charles-1780-1860)): yes, really! \\ | |
| \\ | \\ |
| Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P related how the baby, the granddaughter of an Earl and daughter of one of the wealthiest families in Ireland, was named Elizabeth and given the surname of Marks. She reputedly came to NSW in 1836 to work for the [[https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/innes-archibald-clunes-2261|Innes]] family at Lake Macquarie. On 4 July 1836, she married a fellow employee, Alexander Cameron: this marriage in the Church of England at Port Macquarie is listed in the BDM. Robert M-P wrote that Alexander Cameron later enlisted TLM-P’s help in getting Elizabeth’s parentage recognised, but all the younger generation of Butlers did was to indicate their regret and acknowledge the birth. \\ | Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P related how the baby, the granddaughter of an Earl and daughter of one of the wealthiest families in Ireland, was named Elizabeth and given the surname of Marks. She reputedly came to NSW in 1836 to work for the [[https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/innes-archibald-clunes-2261|Innes]] family at Lake Macquarie. On 4 July 1836, she married a fellow employee, Alexander Cameron: this marriage in the Church of England at Port Macquarie is listed in the BDM. Robert M-P wrote that Alexander Cameron later enlisted TLM-P’s help in getting Elizabeth’s parentage recognised, but all the younger generation of Butlers did was to indicate their regret and acknowledge the birth. \\ |
| It's an intriguing tale, yet one that raises a number of red flags. \\ | It's an intriguing tale, yet one that raises a number of red flags. \\ |
| \\ | \\ |
| While it was normal for Victorian-era husbands to write on behalf of wives, there is no mention of Elizabeth (like Sir John Conroy’s wife) having any knowledge of her husband’s intervention. In this case, a complication is that Elizabeth Marks was not literate, as indicated by her signing her marriage certificate with a cross.((copy in possession of J. Godden)) As well, the dates/place Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P give for Elizabeth and Alexander’s deaths are incorrect (cf. BDM) and, to date, no record of Elizabeth Marks coming to Australia in or around 1836 has been found.((The Biological Database of Australia is not comprehensive, but contains no record of Elizabeth Marks coming to NSW in or around 1836:{{https://www.bda-online.org.au/mybda/search/}})) Their story, therefore, is not reliable in some verifiable details. {{https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/sarah-butler_96304805|Ancestory.com}} confirms the story, but appears to be a repetition of Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P's tale with some added errors such as Sarah and Andrew marrying.\\ | While it was normal for Victorian-era husbands to write on behalf of wives, there is no mention of Elizabeth (like Sir John Conroy’s wife) having any knowledge of her husband’s intervention. In this case, a complication is that Elizabeth Marks was not literate, as indicated by her signing her marriage certificate with a cross.((copy in possession of J. Godden)) As well, the dates/place Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P give for Elizabeth and Alexander’s deaths are incorrect (cf. BDM). Most importantly, the Eliza Marks who arrived on the //James Pattison// on 11 December 1836 was then aged 20. That means her birth year was 1816 or, if she had a December birthday, 1815. In either case, she born after her supposed mother married which blows the story of the passionate young lovers who wanted to marry out of the water. {{https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/sarah-butler_96304805|Ancestory.com}} repeats the story, but their source appears to be Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P's tale with some added errors such as Sarah and Andrew marrying.\\ |
| \\ | \\ |
| A tendency to fantasy could also be inferred from a descendant of Elizabeth and Alexander Cameron: Sarah Jane Coombes (nee Cameron). If one (rather dubious in that no evidence is provided) source is correct, Sarah fanatised about the Murray-Priors becoming Australian monarchs, with her family having titles - all based on the supposed Butler connection.((Rita Young, From Royalty to Us, unpublished leaflet, 1984, SL, p.xvi)) \\ | A tendency to fantasy could also be inferred from a descendant of Elizabeth and Alexander Cameron: Sarah Jane Coombes (nee Cameron). If one (rather dubious in that no evidence is provided) source is correct, Sarah fanatised about the Murray-Priors becoming Australian monarchs, with her family having titles - all based on the supposed Butler connection.((Rita Young, From Royalty to Us, unpublished leaflet, 1984, SL, p.xvi)) \\ |
| === Four Generations: source of names and pride === | === Four Generations: source of names and pride === |
| | [[Hervey Morres, 1625-1724]] | m. | [[[[the_butler_family|Frances Butler]]| | | [[Hervey Morres, 1625-1724]] | m. | [[[[the_butler_family|Frances Butler]]| |
| | [[ Francis Morres]] (b. circa 1680) | m. 1706 | [[francis_morres|Catherine Evans]]| | | [[ Francis Morres]] (b. c.1680) | m. 1706 | [[francis_morres|Catherine Evans]]| |
| | [[ Redmond Morres]] (d. 1784) | m. 1740 | [[redmond_morres|Elizabeth Lodge]]| | | [[ Redmond Morres]] (1711((Patrick Prior's family tree))-1784) | m. 1740 | [[redmond_morres|Elizabeth Lodge]](1713-1806)((Patrick Prior's family tree))| |
| | [[Frances Morres]] (b. circa 1751) | m. 29 April 1772 | [[frances_morres|Andrew Murray-Prior]] (c.1747-95) TLM-P's great-grandfather|\\ | | [[Frances Morres]] (c.1751-1806((Patrick Prior's family tree))) | m. 29 April 1772 | [[frances_morres|Andrew Murray-Prior]] (c.1747-95) TLM-P's great-grandfather|\\ |
| | |
| The Table above summarises the connection between the Murray-Priors and the Morres/Lodge families.((Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, pp. 11-12.)) It begins with Hervey Morres marrying Frances Butler: their great-granddaughter (another Frances) married Andrew M-P, TLM-P's great-grandfather. The Morres family tended to be successful, wealthy (Francis and Redmond, the second and third generation above, both married an [[heiress]]) and were public figures. The Morres family's use as role models for children increased from 1816 when Lodge Morres (brother of Frances M-P nee Morres) was awarded the title [[wp>Viscount_Frankfort_de_Montmorency|Viscount Frankfort de Montmorency]]. He choose de Montmorency because of what Burke's Peerage called a 'genuine but mistaken belief' that he was descended from the distinguished French family of that name.\\ | |
| |
| | The Table above summarises the connection between the Murray-Priors and the Morres/Lodge families.((Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, pp. 11-12.)) It begins with Hervey Morres marrying Frances Butler: their great-granddaughter (another Frances) married Andrew M-P, TLM-P's great-grandfather. The Morres family tended to be successful, wealthy (Francis and Redmond, the second and third generation above, both married an [[heiress]]) and were public figures. The Morres family's use as role models for children increased from 1816 when Lodge Morres (brother of Frances M-P nee Morres) was awarded the title [[wp>Viscount_Frankfort_de_Montmorency|Viscount Frankfort de Montmorency]]. He choose de Montmorency because of what Burke's Peerage called a 'genuine but mistaken belief' that he was descended from the distinguished French family of that name. When visiting England in 1882, TLM-P visited T.L. de Montmorency at 78 Old Bond Street, London and the next day, again saw him as well as his son.(Diary, 27-28 August 1882)).\\ |
| | \\ |
| Generations of Murray-Priors drew on Andrew M-P's august in-laws when choosing names for their children. The second name of TLM-P, Andrew M-P's great-grandson, was Lodge while his uncle was [[Lodge Morres M-P.]] Many of TLM-P's children appear to be named after this family. Catherine and Elizabeth were popular names and also the second names of TLM-P’s step-sister Louisa; Lodge and Morres could be named after his uncle; but there appears no reason other than identification with the Morres family when three of TLM-P's sons were named Hervey, Redmond and (as a second name for Thomas) de Montmorenci (a variation of Montmorency). Louisa, TLM-P's step-sister, urged that de Montmorenci be the second name for another of his sons: this suggestion was vetoed by his second wife Nora as being 'too pretentious for the colonies".((Nora to Rosa, 20 February 1882))\\ | Generations of Murray-Priors drew on Andrew M-P's august in-laws when choosing names for their children. The second name of TLM-P, Andrew M-P's great-grandson, was Lodge while his uncle was [[Lodge Morres M-P.]] Many of TLM-P's children appear to be named after this family. Catherine and Elizabeth were popular names and also the second names of TLM-P’s step-sister Louisa; Lodge and Morres could be named after his uncle; but there appears no reason other than identification with the Morres family when three of TLM-P's sons were named Hervey, Redmond and (as a second name for Thomas) de Montmorenci (a variation of Montmorency). Louisa, TLM-P's step-sister, urged that de Montmorenci be the second name for another of his sons: this suggestion was vetoed by his second wife Nora as being 'too pretentious for the colonies".((Nora to Rosa, 20 February 1882))\\ |
| \\ | \\ |
| TLM-P and Louisa M-P were not the only M-Ps to identify with the de Montmorencys - Swire Murray-Prior was from another branch of the family and his death notice, //Sydney Morning Herald//, 22 December 1993, p.35, gives his second name as 'de Montmorency'.((clipping courtesy Tom A. M-P.)) Swire was born in 1911 to Bertram A. and Ida L. M-P.((BDM)) As well, the British Army List for January-March 1866 refers to a Herbert de M. M-P who was a Cornet in the 1st (Kings) Dragoon Guards; the Army List for May 1869 shows that he sold out of the army when an Ensign with the rank of Lieutenant. In 1869, the army lists both Lieutenant Adrian de Montmorency Prior (in the Royal Artillery) and Brevet Colonel J. de M. M. Prior, late of the Dragoons.((Note that this information is from old notes of mine from the Public Record Office at Kew (England) and needs checking.)) \\ | TLM-P and Louisa M-P were not the only M-Ps to identify with the de Montmorencys - Swire Murray-Prior was from another branch of the family and his death notice, //Sydney Morning Herald//, 22 December 1993, p.35, gives his second name as 'de Montmorency'.((clipping courtesy Tom A. M-P.)) Swire was born in 1911 to Bertram A. and Ida L. M-P.((BDM))\\ |
| |
| //{{ https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G_M1umyY614/Vt2Q48p_RII/AAAAAAAAaOU/SHqUmrtydmo/s1600/ju.jpg?400|}}\\ | //{{ https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G_M1umyY614/Vt2Q48p_RII/AAAAAAAAaOU/SHqUmrtydmo/s1600/ju.jpg?400|}}\\ |