Differences

This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

--- edward_i_butler_morres_and_lodge_families [2020/03/21 15:32] – judith
+++ edward_i_butler_morres_and_lodge_families [2020/06/27 17:16] – judith
@@ Line 35: / Line 35: @@
 While it was normal for Victorian-era husbands to write on behalf of wives, there is no mention of Elizabeth (like Sir John Conroy’s wife) having any knowledge of her husband’s intervention. In this case, a complication is that Elizabeth Marks was not literate, as indicated by her signing her marriage certificate with a cross.((copy in possession of J. Godden)) As well, the dates/place Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P give for Elizabeth and Alexander’s deaths are incorrect (cf. BDM) and, to date, no record of Elizabeth Marks coming to Australia in or around 1836 has been found.((The Biological Database of Australia is not comprehensive, but contains no record of Elizabeth Marks coming to NSW in or around 1836:{{https://www.bda-online.org.au/mybda/search/}})) Their story, therefore, is not reliable in some verifiable details. {{https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/sarah-butler_96304805|Ancestory.com}} confirms the story, but appears to be a repetition of Robert and Thomas Bertram M-P's tale with some added errors such as Sarah and Andrew marrying.\\
 \\
-A tendency to delusion could also be inferred from a descendant of Elizabeth and Alexander Cameron: Sarah Jane Coombes (nee Cameron). If one (rather dubious in that no evidence is provided) source is correct, Sarah fanatised about the Murray-Priors becoming Australian monarchs, with her family having titles - all based on the supposed Butler connection.((Rita Young, From Royalty to Us, unpublished leaflet, 1984, SL, p.xvi)) \\
+A tendency to fantasy could also be inferred from a descendant of Elizabeth and Alexander Cameron: Sarah Jane Coombes (nee Cameron). If one (rather dubious in that no evidence is provided) source is correct, Sarah fanatised about the Murray-Priors becoming Australian monarchs, with her family having titles - all based on the supposed Butler connection.((Rita Young, From Royalty to Us, unpublished leaflet, 1984, SL, p.xvi)) \\
 \\
-Typically of many family legends, there is another version of the story. Jemima M-P told her step-brother TLM-P that their father, when he was 17 years old and in the army, was quartered over a stable belonging to the Marquis of Ormond. As the Marquis considered Thomas a kinsman, he arranged for him to stay in the Castle with the family - including Lady Eva Butler. It ended with Thomas being sent away and 'Lady Eva being locked up ... [and she later] married, ran away from her husband, was divorced and ended her life in a show cottage W. Llangollen in Wales, living with a sister.'((TLM-P, Diary, 4 June 1882)) It is a fascinating mishmash as it links the family to the famous story of two women (Lady Eleanor Butler and Sarah Ponsonby) who rejected and/or were rejected by, all male suitors and made several attempts to run away together. They eventually succeeded and lived happily sharing a four-poster bed in their cottage in Llangollen, Wales, gaining a reputation as delightful eccentrics. Alas for a good story, there is no evidence that young Thomas (or any man) ever seduced Eleanor/Eva.((Elizabeth Mavor, //The Ladies of Llangollen// (Penguin Classic Biography), 2002.))\\
+Typically of many family legends, there is another version of the story. Jemima M-P told her step-brother TLM-P that their father, when he was 17 years old and in the army, was quartered over a stable belonging to the Marquis of Ormond. As the Marquis considered Thomas a kinsman, he arranged for him to stay in the Castle with the family, which included Lady Eva Butler. It ended with Thomas being sent away and 'Lady Eva being locked up ... [and she later] married, ran away from her husband, was divorced and ended her life in a show cottage W. Llangollen in Wales, living with a sister.'((TLM-P, Diary, 4 June 1882)) It is a fascinating mishmash as it links the family to the famous story of two women (Lady Eleanor Butler and Sarah Ponsonby) who rejected and/or were rejected by, all male suitors and made several attempts to run away together. They eventually succeeded and lived happily sharing a four-poster bed in their cottage in Llangollen, Wales, gaining a reputation as delightful eccentrics. Alas for a good story, there is no evidence that young Thomas (or any man) ever seduced Eleanor/Eva.((Elizabeth Mavor, //The Ladies of Llangollen// (Penguin Classic Biography), 2002.))\\
 \\
 The verdict? Most likely, Elizabeth Marks had nothing to do with the Murray-Priors or Butlers, though possibly an affair between Andrew R. M-P and Lady Sarah Butler that resulted in a baby did occur.\\
@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 The Table above summarises the connection between the Murray-Priors and the Morres/Lodge families.((((https://www.munster-express.ie/community-notes/kilkenny/lecture-given-on-castlemorris-house-and-estate; Robert M-P, The Blood Royal of the Murray-Priors, pp. 11-12.)) It begins with Hervey Morres marrying Frances Butler: their great-granddaughter (another Frances) married Andrew M-P, TLM-P's great-grandfather. The Morres family tended to be successful, wealthy (Francis and Redmond, the second and third generation above, both married an [[heiress]]) and were public figures. The Morres family's use as role models for children increased from 1816 when Lodge Morres (brother of Frances M-P nee Morres) was awarded the title [[wp>Viscount_Frankfort_de_Montmorency|Viscount Frankfort de Montmorency]]. He choose de Montmorency because of  what Burke's Peerage called a 'genuine but mistaken belief' that he was descended from the distinguished French family of that name.\\
-Generations of Murray-Priors drew on Andrew M-P's august in-laws when choosing names for their children. The second name of TLM-P, Andrew M-P's great-grandson, was Lodge while his uncle was [[Lodge Morres M-P.]] Many of TLM-P's children appear to be named after this family. Catherine and Elizabeth were popular names and also the second names of TLM-P’s step-sister Louisa; Lodge and Morres could be named after his uncle; but there appears no reason other than identification with the Morres family when three of TLM-P's sons were named Hervey, Redmond and (as a second name for Thomas) de Montmorenci (a variation of Montmorency).\\
+Generations of Murray-Priors drew on Andrew M-P's august in-laws when choosing names for their children. The second name of TLM-P, Andrew M-P's great-grandson, was Lodge while his uncle was [[Lodge Morres M-P.]] Many of TLM-P's children appear to be named after this family. Catherine and Elizabeth were popular names and also the second names of TLM-P’s step-sister Louisa; Lodge and Morres could be named after his uncle; but there appears no reason other than identification with the Morres family when three of TLM-P's sons were named Hervey, Redmond and (as a second name for Thomas) de Montmorenci (a variation of Montmorency). Louisa, TLM-P's step-sister, urged that de Montmorenci be the second name for another of his sons: this suggestion was vetoed by his second wife Nora as being 'too pretentious for the colonies".((Nora to Rosa, 20 February 1882))\\
 \\
-TLM-P was not the only M-P to identify with the de Montmorencys - Swire Murray-Prior was from another branch of the family and his death notice, //Sydney Morning Herald//, 22 December 1993, p.35, gives his second name as 'de Montmorency'.((clipping courtesy Tom A. M-P.)) Swire was born in 1911 to Bertram A. and Ida L. M-P.((BDM)) As well, the British Army List for January-March 1866 refers to a Herbert De M. M-P who was a Cornet in the 1st (Kings) Dragoon Guards; the Army List for May 1869 shows that he sold out of the army when an Ensign with the rank of Lieutenant. In 1869, the army lists both Lieutenant Adrian de Montmorency Prior (in the Royal Artillery) and Brevet Colonel J. de M. M. Prior, late of the Dragoons.((Note that this information is from old notes of mine from the Public Record Office at Kew (England) and needs checking.)) \\
+TLM-P and Louisa M-P were not the only M-Ps to identify with the de Montmorencys - Swire Murray-Prior was from another branch of the family and his death notice, //Sydney Morning Herald//, 22 December 1993, p.35, gives his second name as 'de Montmorency'.((clipping courtesy Tom A. M-P.)) Swire was born in 1911 to Bertram A. and Ida L. M-P.((BDM)) As well, the British Army List for January-March 1866 refers to a Herbert de M. M-P who was a Cornet in the 1st (Kings) Dragoon Guards; the Army List for May 1869 shows that he sold out of the army when an Ensign with the rank of Lieutenant. In 1869, the army lists both Lieutenant Adrian de Montmorency Prior (in the Royal Artillery) and Brevet Colonel J. de M. M. Prior, late of the Dragoons.((Note that this information is from old notes of mine from the Public Record Office at Kew (England) and needs checking.)) \\
 //{{  https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G_M1umyY614/Vt2Q48p_RII/AAAAAAAAaOU/SHqUmrtydmo/s1600/ju.jpg?400|}}\\